Otmar Szafnauer: Who called in this meeting? Let me take some notes. Go ahead.
Tara Ramos: I am curious.
Otmar: What do you guys want to talk about?
Tara: From our side, we are clear. Steve has mentioned that the team doesn't seem to be as clear as we are.
Stephen Curnow: You (Otmar) had a meeting with Vijay. Is that a starting point?
Otmar: This is about a commission payment out of the BWT deal? Is that what we are talking about?
Tara: Exactly.
Otmar: Here is the thing. Did you guys take BWT to Sauber? Did you have anything to do with that?
Emanuel Moser: I did that.
Otmar: If you would have done a deal with Sauber, you should have been happy to go to Sauber and take in your commission. You definitely didn't bring them to me. Because Andreas called me directly. I never met you. So for me to pay you a commission when BWT calls me directly and says the deal with Sauber has fallen through, I wanna do something with you guys, and by the way, I am also talking to Toro Rosso doesn't make sense to me. Does that make sense to you?
Tara: This is what you are saying?
Otmar: No, this is what happened.
Tara: It didn't!
Otmar: What happened? By the time Toto called me, I had already talked to Andreas. And then Steve is telling me, there is a commission thing that I never saw.
So I said to Toto that there is something with commission? Andreas called me directly, but somebody is asking Steve for commission. Toto said pay the commission. This is what he said. But he doesn't know the details. I never told him. He said when people bring me a deal, I always pay the commission. That's what Toto said. You go ask him; this is exactly what he said.
So I was on the phone with him, and I asked him some other questions about Andreas. He says, I know Andreas, I know him well. By the time I talked to Toto, I already talked to Andreas; he called me directly.
Tara: Before that call, whenever that call was, I had been with Andy Stevenson; I have been with Vijay. Vijay gave a direct order to you (Steven Curnow), saying that you should deal with me about that particular sponsor.
Otmar: This is what we are going to do. You go to Vijay; he is a shareholder, he is my boss, I don't own the team, I am an employee. You go to Vijay; whatever Vijay agrees, I agree too, I have no issues.
Tara: I have it written from Vijay that he is okay with paying a commission as we have agreed.
Otmar: If Vijay gives me that directive, you have no issue with me. Zero.
Tara: We are clear, anyways; we have an agreement with Steve that our mandate is safe, that the sponsor came from us.
Otmar: Steve isn't my boss. Vijay is.
Tara: I am not talking about a pecking order. I am saying that we have everything in written, how everything evolved and the call between you and Andreas, because I have put Steve in contact with Andreas.
Steve had called me; we have it even in the emails, who put whom in contact. Steve and I were on the phone in the morning, and only then Andreas had been in touch with you.
Otmar: I don't know the chronology.
Tara: But obviously, it is important to know the chronology.
Otmar: Chronology is important. Because I asked Andreas. I don't know what you and Vijay and Andy Stevenson are doing. That I don't know. I just know Andreas called me and said, are you interested in doing this? The whole car has to be pink.
Tara: We have it all in writing. So for us, the situation is clear.
Otmar: The clear situation is that you brought BWT to me?
Tara: To Force India.
Otmar: Ask BWT that.
Tara: We will.
Otmar: So BWT told me last night if I pay any of their money to a third party, they are going to quit. They are leaving. So you get nothing. We get nothing. That's what they said.
Emanuel: Then, they need to quit.
Otmar: That's what they'll do. Do you have a signed contract with us?
Tara: We have an agreement with Steve!
Otmar: You have a signed contract, let me ask you again. Do you guys have a signed contract?
Emanuel & Tara: We do not need to have a signed contract.
Otmar: Let me ask again, let me ask a third time. Do you have a signed contract with us?
Emanuel & Tara: We do not need a signed contract!
Otmar: Do you have one.
Emanuel & Tara: We do not need one.
Otmar: So you don't have one?
Tara: We don't need it. We have everything in writing.
Emanuel: We can also make oral deals.
Otmar: Do you have a signed contract with Sauber?
Emanuel: I have one.
Otmar: Why don't you do that in oral? Like you said, you don't have to have a signed contract; it could be oral. Why wasn't your deal with Sauber oral?
Emanuel: The first document I sent over was a mandate.
Otmar: Andy Stevenson does not have any right for anything in the commercial stuff. So if you ran into Andy in the streets of London.
Tara: We are not talking about Andy.
Otmar: If Vijay Mallya, who is my boss, says Otmar Tara came to see me at my house well before you talked to Andreas.
Tara: Of course, and you know that.
Otmar: Listen.
Tara: You cannot say anything different.
Otmar: If he says that, I have no issue. I will pay you whatever he says. And I will do that. I have no issue. Zero.
So it's pretty simple. Convince Vijay.
Tara: I do not need to convince Vijay. The facts are all on the table.
Emanuel: We do not need to do this because the facts are on the table.
Otmar: Okay, fine. Then it is done.
Tara: You have received our first invoice.
Otmar: Then, it is done. If you do not need to convince Vijay. I will tell him about this meeting; I will say we got an invoice; what do you want me to do? And if he says pay it, I will pay it. And if he says don't. I work for Vijay, not for you guys. If he says don't pay it, I am not going to pay it. And after that, you either have to convince Vijay somehow or a judge.
Emanuel: We don't need to convince him because it's a fact how everything was possible. I have the first email I wrote to Andreas, and I have every email I wrote to you. We have everything.
Otmar: Great.
Tara: I am actually shocked about what you are just saying to us.
Emanuel: It is not fair what you are doing to us right now. There are simple facts on the table.
Otmar: I tell you what is not fair. You took this deal to Sauber; it didn't work. Get your money from Sauber. Andreas calls me. You didn't bring the deal to us.
Tara: Of course.
Otmar: You are a representative of BWT? Then what have you done?
Tara: Seriously, we have so many messages with Steve that say what is fact. And now you are trying to roll back?
Otmar: No, I am not. Steve didn't do this deal; I got a call from Andreas. Steve knew nothing about it. Andreas does not talk to Steve. He won't. We would talk to a CEO; he will not. Lutz talks to Steve. They have a hierarchy. He won't.
Andreas called me and said, are you interested in doing this deal? And I said yes. Then you started talking to Lutz. Then Vijay called me. Absolutely.
Tara: No
Otmar: Absolutely
Emanuel: We can prove it; if you can prove it too?
Otmar: Absolutely. I can prove it. Absolutely. Just ask Andreas.
Tara: Why should we ask all these people? We have all the facts here.
Otmar: You know when Andreas called me, you have that fact?
Tara: Do you have it?
Otmar: I do!
Tara: Then present it.
Otmar: I will tell you when Andreas called me. When you don't believe me, then you go to Andreas and ask if he had called Force India and if it was before this.
Tara: Of course, the answer is clear.
Otmar: Which is?
Tara: After, way after. Almost eight days after.
Otmar: So if you write, you go to BWT and say I was a broker in this, pay me. Why should I pay you?
Tara: Because you received the money.
Emanuel: BWT asked me in the beginning who will pay you, and I said that the team will pay us. That is normal. We have everything written.
Otmar: So we are back to this again. If Vijay tells me, Otmar pay 'em, this is what I will do.
Tara: I don't think that any of you want this to happen. The situation that we are in.
Otmar: How much was the invoice?
Tara: 500k and something
Otmar: And what is the total amount that you are going to invoice us?
Emanuel & Tara: 15% of everything like we have agreed.
Otmar: And you think that is fair?
Tara: Of course. And it doesn't need to be fair.
Otmar: You think it is fair to charge 15% for a phone call?
Emanuel: To convince BWT to come into Formula One and to come to you. We have all written down. We can show you.
Otmar: You bring it to Sauber? You didn't bring it to Sauber.
Emanuel: They did not want to change the colour of the car. Then this was over, and I called Tara.
Tara: And the funny thing is that Nico Hülkenberg was there, and he knows everything about it, so there is another witness.
We have everything in writing. Steve came to me yesterday, and we had a brief conversation about this; and he said that you guys are not comfortable with 15%, but we want you to be looked after.
Otmar: Is that what you said (Steve)?
Curnow: I am not sure I said that. I don't recall saying that, but if that is what you are saying.
Otmar: Anyways, it is not his decision but go ahead.
Tara: I said super. I have it on record that Steve knows where the deal came from, BWT knows where the deal comes from, Vijay knows where the deal comes from, Toto knows where the deal comes from, Nico knows where the deals comes from. So that conversation that we are having is just ridiculous because it does not reflect the facts. And I think all of us know that.
So if you guys say that 15% is too much, we even made known that it is BWT, we said to Steve, and we have it in writing, this is what we would like to have. Steve replies back: we are happy to pay 15%.
Otmar: Did you (Steve)?
Curnow: Well, if I wrote that, I am not authorised.
Tara: That does not matter; this is an internal problem of you.
Otmar: For sure, for sure.
Tara: If you (Steve) tell me, Tara, I give you two million, and you did not get it signed off internally, then this is not my problem.
Otmar: You cannot go to the cleaner and say, what would you pay me.
Tara: Exactly, but he is the commercial director.
Curnow: I think our commercial agreements are all subject to the COO's approve, and that is in the document that you have
Otmar: He probably sent a standard document. Here is how it works at our place. I get every one of these; I have to sign off. I usually get 'em, and I flip to the back page, and the back page has a list of companies and categories that we are signing up that agent to look for.
Tara: Have a look at this document; here you have it
Otmar: Now, I recognise it. On the back, it has that, and I always look through to make sure before I sign it that it is proper. That we are not signing up two-three guys to look out for the same thing. I always do that. I have never seen this. Ever. No-one has ever come to me.
Tara: Steven has confirmed that everything is okay many times.
Otmar: So when I get a call from Andreas from BWT saying that can we do a deal, and I have never signed this, what am I to think except for this is the first. And then I hear about this. I have never seen this; you never brought it to me to sign, ever.
Tara: (Steve) so why you did not bring it although you have confirmed to us in writing that you did?
Curnow: That is not a legal document.
Tara: Yes, it is. And also, what you have written to us is legally binding.
Otmar: Tara, that is how I get to where I am going to. I have never seen this. Our standard procedure is…
Tara: This is your procedure; it is not our procedure.
Otmar: I had a phone call from Andreas.
Tara: Way after all of this happened.
Otmar: I don't know what you did with him.
Tara: You only received a phone call from Andreas because of us.
Otmar: If he says all of that.
Tara: Otmar, do you know what happens if you go down that road? All of this will turn sour. The sponsorship. They will be so unhappy suddenly finding themselves in a legal battle in England being called in as witnesses.
What you are saying is not entirely the truth. The phone call with you and Andreas has been way after we started talking about it.
Otmar: I talked to Andreas well before any of this. To me, Andreas was my point of call. I talked to Andreas; then I talked to Toto. Toto called me and said I understand one of my Austrian counterparts has called you. That's the truth. I was sitting at my desk; I had no reason to call Toto. When he called, I asked questions about BWT.
Tara: I don't think that we are getting on here. We have everything in writing. Steve has made confirmations on behalf of Force India towards us. What is happening internally with you guys …
Otmar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is not your problem. You don't know what our procedures are.
Tara: If a commercial director makes an agreement in writing, it is not the cleaning lady.
Otmar: I get that.
Tara: He has confirmed many times that it is on the way. You can read it; we leave you everything here.
Otmar: I will read it. You left me the chronology already.
Emanuel: How come we have all that documents. The full proposal to BWT, all the designs?
Tara: The first time BWT saw them is because I sent them to them. Not because you guys sent them to them.
Otmar: I always say that reasonable people with the same information will come to the same conclusion.
Your first protocol is to convince Vijay.